INTERVIEW: Jonathan, Buhari do not represent the change Nigerians seek, says Sonaiya

Oluremi Sonaiya, a professor of linguistics and presidential candidate of KOWA Party, wants Nigerians to look beyond the two leading presidential candidates if they truly want to have the change they desire.

Ahead of next month’s presidential election, the focus has been on Goodluck Jonathan, incumbent president and candidate of the Peoples Democratic Party (PDP), and Muhammadu Buhari, former head of state and presidential candidate of the All Progressives Congress (APC).

Sonaiya agrees with Wole Soyinka’s position that Nigerians are in a dilemma with the two candidates being presented to them, one having a problem with his present, the other with his past.

She says she has no problem at all.

“I have been saying clean hands and no baggage,” she says. “Look behind me, there’s absolutely nobody standing behind, wanting to control or pull the strings. I have absolutely no baggage. For me, I don’t see a clean slate in the others.”

BELOW IS THE FULL TEXT OF THE SONAIYA INTERVIEW WITH ‘FISAYO SOYOMBO, TAIWO GEORGE AND MANSUR IBRAHIM

If the elections were not postponed, you would have known by now if you are president-elect or not. What exactly are your thoughts on the postponement?

My confessions have been published, and I was just reading something this morning that was quoting what I said at a media event organised on Monday. I hope you will get it right, because what was being quoted by the journalist was not the feeling I intended to convey. What I said was that I felt disappointed that we, as Nigerians, could not set date for our elections and keep to that date.

We had four years to prepare for the elections; now a week to the date, you said you are busy fighting a war; we are this, we are that; we have not been able to distribute PVCs and things like that. Such things do not portray us as a nation of serious people.

We are not the only ones who are in difficulty in the world; others conduct their elections. Why is it that we cannot conduct ours? I just don’t like things that show us in bad light, as a nation of unserious, undisciplined people.

At the peace accord that was signed in Abuja last month, you did say you were somewhat ashamed that Nigeria was washing its dirty linen in the presence of the international community…

You know I did not… I know it’s difficult to get what people are saying, but I did not use the expression “washing dirty linen in the public”. I did express sense of shame; it’s not so much that we are washing our dirty linen in the presence of the international community; it is that we have dirty linen to wash at all that is my own concern. First of all, we have dirty linen; and now, we don’t even seem to realise that it’s dirty; we are now calling people together in fora like that, that we could not conduct elections, we would always be violent in our own elections, so let everybody come and… I just found it very shameful.

Based on your reservations for inviting the international community to a forum like the peace accord, some have wondered if, should you be lucky enough to emerge Nigeria’s next president, you would work with the international community in combating a problem like Boko Haram.

The Boko Haram issue is international. ISIS, al-Qaeda, al-Shabab, al-Taliban; they are all together, so there is no option for anybody. I was not condemning seeking international cooperation for genuine and serious problems. My point there was, why must we be violent during elections? Look at how people have been going on. Look at what happened in Rivers state, why do such things have to happen? What is it about Nigerians that we cannot conduct ourselves properly? That is my concern.

Still on dirty linen, one of what an angry Nigerian would first identify is corruption. How would a Sonaiya as president of Nigeria tackle corruption? Jonathan has talked about employing technology. What would your own strategy be?

The leadership must be sincere and give the clear example. We can say we are going to use technology, but people are saying we have $20 billion missing, we have this amount of money missing, you are not coming out to tell us where these monies are or what has been done with the monies, and you’re saying you want to use technology? What technology is going to tell us that one?

But there was an audit by PWC that seems to have cleared NNPC of any wrongdoing.

Then, we are satisfied. There is no corruption. Thank God (sarcastic laughter). But what I am saying is that there is nothing that tackles corruption more than transparent, accountable system of government and the establishment of the rule of law for everybody from the president down to the smallest person. If you are not submitting yourself to the rule of law, all this enjoyment of immunity… I don’t understand why anybody should enjoy immunity from being prosecuted for wrongdoing?

 

So you suggest that current office holders should face prosecution for alleged corruption?

Everybody! If you do wrong, if there is evidence that you did wrong, in most progressive societies, they don’t shield their leaders from the consequences of their actions. No; so that the leaders know that they are accountable to these people. I think that this whole immunity from this, immunity from that, it makes people indulge in wrongdoing and impunity! Once you know nothing is catching up with you at least for the next whatever years, you are trying to move from one position that you’re occupying. So once you finish at the house of assembly, you will try and make sure that you get to the senate and get renewal so that ultimately nobody is able to catch up with you on offences you committed maybe five years ago. We would forget about it and that one would just go.

Another ‘dirty linen’ is poor electricity generation. Jonathan is promising stable electricity if re-elected. APC is promising the same. But why exactly do you think we have been unable to generate power, and how can it be solved?

You expect me to know why we cannot generate power? Well, let me say for real, standing outside, do you know why we cannot generate power? You see, I think you media people don’t ask the real questions. But, anyway, what I tell myself is that if something is in other places and it is not working in our own country, the problem cannot be the technology. Technology of power generation is known as we are sitting down. The problem has to be with the people, it has to be with the people. And that is what we must address, because I don’t see why something should function properly in other places and refuse to function in Nigeria. It has something to do with Nigerians.

We have so corrupted and polluted our system. So, who? I don’t think the question is what. Who is making the generation of electricity impossible in Nigeria, either by importing fake, old machinery, which they would claim that they have imported at some very huge cost? People will bring in almost dilapidated equipment at the price of new. It’s all about corruption; we are the ones killing ourselves. There’s nothing wrong with generating electricity. Like they say, it is no longer rocket science. If you go next door to Benin republic, you won’t have to think about electricity. It won’t be one of your concerns, do they have two heads there? So what’s our problem?

You were talking about the real questions, I was wondering if you could raise one or two.

Let me tell you some of the real questions that you are not asking. We celebrate with fanfare. We have finally refurbished, mended the Benin-Ore road; that is an achievement. Who has asked: at the cost of how much per kilometre, because we know what the average cost of a kilometre of road in other places? So has that been the amount at which we have refurbished our own? You know, we celebrate all these achievements, but maybe that road could have given us 10 different roads across the country. Let us not get easily satisfied with things around and say we have achieved this, we have achieved that. The real issue is at what cost and after how much time?

Why should it take us 10 years or more to refurbish the Lagos-Ibadan Expressway? We have been at it since 1999, so if somebody completes that now, they would want us all to celebrate. Why should we be celebrating? Is that the rate of development in other places in the world? They are numbing our minds, and we are agreeing as well. I find that unacceptable.

You have stated publicly that the focus of the media and the public has been on only two parties. Is that an indication of what would happen on March 28? Would the voting pattern similarly centre on the two parties?

Only God can foretell the future; it’s a game I don’t play, because nobody knows what would happen. What I am saying – and I have been saying it for quite some time now – is that this focus on the two major political parties or the two front-liners is a disservice to Nigerians. It is a disservice because many people are not very happy with either. There are those who are die-hard of one or the other, but there are quite a number of people who are not really satisfied with either of them. But you know, if you watch TV, if you listen to the radio, read the newspapers, if one coughs, it is reported, if the other sneezes, it is reported. Meanwhile, we have 14 presidential candidates and we are not even considering them as viable alternatives. I think the media should help Nigeria to discover the others.

 

It is rather late now in the day. Like you said, if we have had the election on February 14, that would have been the end of it. We don’t even know what kind of people the others are. I am not complaining so much because I think I’ve got quite a fair amount of publicity. When they mention Buhari, Jonathan, they mention Remi Sonaiya, because, obviously, I am the only woman. The attention seems to have shifted on me. But what of all the other people, what do we know about them?

There has been this studied silence as if “just don’t try and make Nigerians know whatever options we have” – and these are real options. If we want change, in what way do the two that we know represent change? That’s my point.

Like you said, you have managed to get some publicity. What is the campaign experience like?

It has been good, I have been enjoying myself. I have been meeting people in different ways. On social media, I have been most active; that has been my platform. You know I am not swimming in money, to say the least. That has been the area of concentration, but also in groups. I have had the opportunity of being invited to several occasions, as well as to do interviews on radio, television, you know, with the print media people, and its gone much better than I would have imagined.

You have been critical of the system, and there is a saying that critics know the way, but they can’t drive the car. What would you do differently if you won?

This critic has written three books about the situation, so I am not a critic. If I just wanted to be a critic, I would not be where I am today. There is no better place to be a critic than in a university. I would sit down there, continue doing my job, continue to write articles in newspapers and things like that, and criticise what is going on. The fact that I resigned from the university, joined a political party and I am seeking election now says it all. It means that there’s obviously someone here who wants to get involved.

So what would I do differently? I think the entire culture of public life, the conduct of our public affair in the nation is just completely wrong. Those who are in leadership positions, they get there and think they have become some very special people.

I chuckle when already I am just contesting and people are calling me “Your Excellency”. What kind of Excellency? Who are you? You know we like all these trappings of office and things like that, that do not really address the issues. Where are we as a nation today? What are the things that we need in leadership? You know, they keep saying “Oh, we want to build something that befits the status of Nigeria?” What is the status of Nigeria? When they were talking about using billions of naira to build a new dining hall for Aso rock? They say something that is befitting Nigeria. What’s befitting Nigerians? Look outside, look at our roads, look at our hospitals, the schools, then they say what befits our status. What’s your status? Why do people have this unrealistic idea? How many of us turned taps in our houses today and water came out? Then you say you have a status, what status do we have?

You people just live in this world that I don’t understand. Since 1980, poverty has doubled in Nigeria. In 1980, it was put around 28 percent. Today, it is at 54 percent; that was as of 2012. Fifty-four percent of us are really poor and then some leaders would come and say we have the largest presidential fleet in the world. What’s wrong with us? Why can’t we think in real terms?

You have said social media is your main platform, yet less than 20 million Nigerians are active on social media out of an estimated 170 million people. Is that not something against you?

Certainly, but what do I do? Do I have a plane sitting on a tarmac waiting to take me all over the country? I know what campaigns are, but I’m not going to break my neck. If you don’t have money, you don’t spend it! Alright? I know that there are people, people who are working for us in other parts of the country; it just means that I am not able to physically go everywhere. We are running volunteers, people making their small contributions, donations, but I don’t have huge sums of money to use. For me, money is not the issue at all. I don’t envy in the least the people who have money. If I had money, I would not spend even it the way that they are spending it; I will invest in our schools to transform our schools, to train our teachers, to make learning environment more conducive for our students. I would not spend money, you know, N3,000, N5,000 getting uniforms to be worn at campaign rallies. I wouldn’t do that.

How many states have you covered?

I have been to Lagos, I have been to Abuja, the federal capital territory; I was in Osogbo and we have been to Oyo state, mostly the southwest. I would do what I am able to do, there’s nothing that brings more satisfaction than that. I won’t say if I had N100 million now, I would be doing so and so. I don’t have that kind of mentality; I have never had it. My mentality is about what you have in your hands, and what you can do with it. That’s the way I have always operated and I’m very happy to be doing what I am able to do.

Let’s ask a very direct question: Why should Nigerians vote Remi Sonaiya – not Goodluck Jonathan, not Muhammadu Buhari?

…because Remi Sonaiya represents the real change that we are looking for. I was reading in the Punch this morning on Professor Wole Soyinka saying he understands Nigeria’s dilemma faced with the two candidates that are being presented to them; one has a problem with his present, one has with his past. Remi Sonaiya has no problem.

I’ve have been saying clean hands and no baggage. Look behind me, there’s absolutely nobody standing behind, wanting to control or pull the strings. I have absolutely no baggage, and Nigerians… We need to get rid of the vested interests that have been keeping us down all along. How can just like a handful of people control like 80 percent of our economy? What is left for the rest of us? If Nigerians really think about it, I think it’s some kind of fear or whatever. I’m taking a bold step, let them take theirs, too. Let us together rebuild this nation… At times, the advantage you are giving yourself may be that you are bringing in a totally new person so that we can start from a clean slate. For me, I don’t see a clean slate in the others.

I see a few impediments to your aspiration. One is that when you look at Yemi Osinbajo, running mate to Buhari, you see that he was Lagos state attorney-general for eight years, yet he was pretty unknown until he was chosen by APC. You have made comparisons with Ellen Johnson Sirleaf of Liberia but she was active in politics for decades. What public-life experience will people point at in Sonaiya?

You see, if you don’t take my 30 years… I know what I have put into the life of my students in the last 30 years. If that is not public service, I don’t know what it is. For me, the fact that you occupy positions is not your track record.

Some students of OAU were asking me questions last week Friday and one of them came out boldly and said: “In my political economics class this afternoon, we were talking about the track records of three presidential aspirants. President Jonathan was deputy governor, governor, vice president and now president; Buhari was a general in the in the army and head of state; and Remi Sonaiya, she has been head of department in Obafemi Awolowo University and that’s all, so, you have no track record.”

I beg your pardon! What is the meaning of a track record? People should seek enlightenment. One of the things I would like to do is to see Nigeria become a learning society, enlightened and enlightening society. If someone has occupied a position, is that a track record?  A track record is what you did, my friends; it is not the fact that you occupied the position. You get to a place, you leave it worse than when you met it and now, you have the audacity to come and tell us that you have a track record. That’s a terrible track record!

The people should begin to really analyse what President Jonathan found on ground when he became president, and where we are today. That is part of the things I am saying, that the media is not asking the right questions. You should ask: what did he find; where are we today? Those are the kinds of questions that our president should be asked.

Just throw a question into the media space asking anybody who has been the student of Remi Sonaiya to come out and say anything you know about her. That will be my own track record.

Another impediment, something else that should ordinarily work for you if we were a learning society, is that you are an academic. The last academic to seek this same office, Professor Pat Utomi, placed 19 out of 20 presidential candidates in 2011, securing only 11,544 votes…

See, I have told you, I don’t engage in speculations, foretelling; and so, it means absolutely nothing to me. What I am concerned about is what I am doing now is it meaningful. I am doing what I am supposed to be doing and am I doing it to the best of my ability; that’s all I care for. If people do not vote for Remi Sonaiya, it is their choice. People have to vote according to their conscience; it is not my business to foretell that I would get 15 percent of the vote or I would get one percent.

Is your presidential ambition a means to an end or an end itself?

Like a ministerial appointment. I was saying somewhere; I wonder whether media people asked men this same question. For me, if you know me, you will know that you shouldn’t have asked me that kind of question. I have never been that kind of person, I am not seeking anything.

If you have had a fulfilled life… Sincerely, I have had a fulfilled life. I went to the best schools; Ife was. One of the reasons I left Ife was that I was a student there and here I was lecturing at the same place, and I was thinking to myself: “Look, what you enjoyed, this children in front of you are not enjoying it. We’ve got to do something about it.” That’s part of the reasons I left, that’s part of my motivation. People have asked: if you don’t come out successful and then they offer you… I think it can only work within a particular system.

So if the president reaches out to you after the election, will you or will you not turn it down?

If the president is not willing to change the way the country has been run under end or from day one, I have no business with that kind of a set up.

Which means turning it down is conditional

If a president had to say today that all those who have been convicted of corruption, let them go and face the court… if the president were to announce that all the monies missing, this and this are the things that happened to them. But is it likely to happen? I’m not sure.